0001 The Search for Truth: Eric Samuelson’s Journey from Science to Faith

Today’s episode is a little different. Instead of opening with a chapter of Scripture, we’re opening with a story. Before listeners can fully understand the heart behind Passages, we felt it was important to introduce the man whose life journey has shaped much of the spiritual framework behind this podcast. 

In this conversation, Brittany sits down with her co-host, Eric Samuelson, to explore the path that led him from a relentless intellectual search for truth to a life anchored in faith. Eric’s story is anything but conventional. 

Born to a Jewish mother and a Lutheran father, his early life was shaped by two religious traditions. As a child, he was immersed in Jewish teaching and learned the Hebrew prayers, studying the foundations of Mosaic law and the Ten Commandments. But by the time he reached his teenage years, Eric began drifting away from faith as he immersed himself in science, mathematics, and philosophy. Fascinated by understanding how the world worked, he devoured books on chemistry, biology, and existential philosophy. By the time he was in high school, he was teaching classmates about thinkers like Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Kafka. During this season of his life, Eric became convinced that humanity existed alone in the universe, the result of random processes and chance. But the search for truth never stopped. 

Eric pursued science academically, scoring a perfect 800 on the SAT math section and enrolling at Georgetown University to study chemistry with the goal of becoming a physician. After applying to 29 medical schools and being rejected by every one of them, his path took an unexpected turn. What initially felt like closed doors would eventually lead him into a new field entirely: understanding people.

 Eric later encountered the Winslow personality assessment system, a powerful framework that measures 24 personality traits related to the human soul—our mind, will, and emotions. The system fascinated him because it revealed patterns in human behavior with remarkable accuracy. Yet even while studying personality science, Eric continued wrestling with deeper questions about truth, faith, and the nature of God. When he returned to Scripture with an analytical mindset, he began testing its claims the same way he had once tested scientific theories. Passage after passage revealed a level of coherence and integrity that he could not dismiss. Eventually, skepticism gave way to faith. 

Today Eric leads the continued development of the Winslow framework and the emerging work of the Spiritual Strategies Institute, where personality insights and biblical discipleship intersect to help people grow in maturity, purpose, and spiritual clarity. 

In this episode, Brittany and Eric discuss: 

• Eric’s early search for truth through science and philosophy 

• Why intellectual honesty led him to question atheism 

• The turning point that brought him back to Scripture 

• The fascinating origins of the Winslow personality system 

• How personality traits reveal patterns within the human soul 

• Why spiritual growth requires both truth and transformation 

• The deeper purpose behind the Passages podcast. 

This episode offers listeners a deeper understanding of why this podcast exists. Passages was never intended to be just another Bible discussion. It was born from a shared conviction that God is still speaking—and that people are hungry to understand Him more clearly. 

If you have ever wrestled with questions about faith, science, truth, or purpose, this conversation will resonate with you. Because sometimes the most powerful spiritual journeys begin with a simple question: What is actually true? And when that question is pursued honestly, it often leads somewhere unexpected. Welcome to the story behind The Bibl

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Today's episode is a little different. We wanted to take a moment to invite you into the story behind this podcast. Because passages didn't start as a brand. They started as a burden, a calling, and a shared conviction that God is speaking and people are hungry to understand him. So today, instead of opening a chapter, we're opening a life. I want you to get to know the man who has shaped so much of the spiritual framework behind this podcast, as well as myself, my co-host Eric. We're going to talk about where he came from, how God has led him, and why we believe this podcast exists in this season. Eric, before we talk about what you teach, I want people to know who you are. Can you start by sharing your story and how God first began to draw you to himself?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Well, sure, I'm honored. Thank you for asking these questions. It's uh it takes me back really to the moment when I was born. I was born from a Jewish mother and a Lutheran father. So uh they had a discussion uh uh at my birth that said uh sh you know he said, Well, I want him raised in the Lutheran faith. So you know, before I could even talk. And so she said, fine. Until it wasn't fine, until I was six years old, and she switched the script on him and said, Well, I want him raised as a Jew. And so he said, Okay, but if he's going to be raised as a Jew, it's gonna be a quote, good Jew. He's gonna be an educated one, he's gonna know his faith. So I was taken to uh Sunday school, I was uh really indoctrinated, I I knew the uh Hebrew prayers, I you know, at Passover, I was pretty good at it. I was getting a good righteous education and that uh or the yarmulke, and I remember when uh my and my father wore a yarmulke when he took me to uh to the to the synagogue. And one day the people were shocked because they wanted to know about his faith, and he said, Well, I'm sweet of Swedish origin and I'm a Lutheran, and they were shocked because they thought the name Samuel's son sounded Jewish. Right, and so um, but he was faithful to do that, and I and honestly, it it shaped me to have that background that I could have a grounding in Mosaic law and the Ten Commandments and in the uh and in the way things were back in the day. Uh so I um but I'll tell you what, at about age 13, I fell away from that faith because I began getting indoctrinated in science and in philosophy. Uh and I realized now that I was on a search for just truth. I just wanted to know how things worked. And so uh that's where things got started to answer your question, and then there's a new phase that comes after that.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

So so how would you that's interesting. So science is what threw you off, even though a lot of the science is in the Bible, with like neuroplasticity and renewing of your mind and things like that. But you're saying science actually made you go a different route.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Science drew me in. It uh it it it was a way to satisfy the hunger for finding truth. I really wanted to know how things worked. So I began studying biology, chemistry. I remember when I was 12 years old, I was at the uh at the bookstore. Remember when there were bookstores? And I went to the bookstore and I found a uh a book on college chemistry. I was 12 years old. I bought this book and studied it and read it. I was just hungry to to know how things worked. And then I got into uh philosophies, uh the existentialism, Soren Kierkegaard, John Paul Sartre, Kafka, you know, all these uh authors of the day back in the in the 60s, and I was reading them intentionally and to the point where teachers would bring me into their classes in high school and have me teach on these subjects. And so I was teaching existentialism to your children at uh at this age, and uh I didn't mean any harm by it. I was uh and I remember when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon, and there was this gorgeous um picture from Life magazine of the Earthrise, and I I took that and I put it on a on a piece of poster paper, and I wrote underneath of it, man is essentially alone in the universe. And that was my philosophy, that I was alone, that there was no God, there was no source of anything, that we were a product of random uh chances of uh of DNA just popping up against each other and evolution. And um, and that was I was sold out to that. So it wasn't like I was just taught that. I I had a deep belief in a study in that. So now we're up to roughly age 18. I mean I was uh I was um sold out on mathematics and I was on the high school chess team. I would play simultaneous chess, I'd play blind chess. Uh I had to do that.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Okay, tell us tell us all what blind chess is, because I I always ask this question. I've never heard this before.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

So blind chess is when you turn your back to the board, and there's uh your opponent is sitting in front of his board and making moves and then just telling you, pond to king four. And then I would come back and say my move, and he would move on my behalf. I didn't turn around to look at the board.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

I just so you have to remember this in your mind essentially. Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

The whole board in your mind. And then when pieces are removed from the board, you gotta have a memory for that as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

So let's circle back for a moment to uh teaching kids at such a young age and picking up these books at like 12 years old. That's not normal. I just want to throw that out there. So do you consider yourself uh so I say this to you all the time. I consider you to be a genius when it comes to things like this because it doesn't make sense. You are extremely smart in a lot of areas, and you have these, this photographic memory, you have all these things. Do you consider yourself to be a genius? Do you consider yourself to be smart? Do you notice that there's a difference with you?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

I I I honestly consider myself to be a student. That's that's really it. I'm I have an eternal deep hunger for truth. In fact, fast forwarding my life verse, I was taught to find one verse in the Bible that speaks to my life. So my life verse is 3 John verse 4, which reads, I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. When I saw that, it's kind of buried, you know, back in John, and you don't always get to that. When I saw that, I was riveted because I said, that just speaks to me. I have a deep hunger for truth. And that drove me to these different philosophies, these different branches of science, mathematics, and and so that's uh that was that. I uh I don't know if they still offer SATs, but when I took the SATs, it had both a math and a verbal side. And when I took the math, there was the maximum number of points was 800, and I got an 800. So it was a perfect math score, and I think the verbal was nowhere near that. I don't know why. I thought I was a good linguist, and uh, but uh anyway, that uh that was just my hunger. I was on the math team, and and what's interesting is I had asthma at a young age, which really prevented me from getting into athletics. I I just didn't have the breath capacity, I didn't have the ability to get oxygen in and CO2 out, and so I became the um the team manager for football. And I had back there's no uh Apple iPads or anything right then, so you had to do everything by hand with a clipboard with a pencil, and I would process you know how many yards everybody got and who carried the ball, and I was taking notes, and I would analyze that over the weekend and then give it to the coach by uh Monday or Tuesday at the first practice, so he could see an analysis of the game. That you know, you didn't couldn't do that with computers. There were no computers to do that with, no software.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

So I was please please tell me you wore like cute little glasses and a pocket protector while doing this?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

No, no pocket protector, but the cute glasses, and I played guitar and I wrote songs and uh you know, so it was it was um I just had an affinity for for those other things, and that so that's that's my early background. And um I I just uh um I just had to enjoy it was very enjoyable.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Okay. So you're a genius, it's fine. We'll just skip past that though. I like how you never look at it that way. You are the most humble person when it comes to me ever giving you compliments on your brain and how much it thinks. And I'm constantly having to say, hey, we don't think like that. You're gonna have to lower it down for us. So I enjoy that about you, even if you don't see it. So you're going through life, you're kind of like more focused now on the science based. What happens at 18? Do you decide to go to college? What do you decide to do with your life?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

I wanted to be a doctor. So I enrolled at Georgetown University. I uh and I had a uh I was pursuing a bachelor's of science in chemistry, with the goal then of getting into medical school. And so I got those, um I finished that course and I applied to 19 medical schools, none of which recognized my genius. And so I thought I rejected by 19 schools. It was very tough to get in. There was a lot of competition back then as well. No excuse, but it is what it is. And so I said, okay, I'm not gonna give up. So I stayed at Georgetown and got a master's of science uh in physiology and biophysics. And I applied then to 10 more schools, rejected by all ten. And I said, okay, 29 schools reject me. I there's a message here. And I remember um I used to go to Ocean City, Maryland on the on the uh for the entire summer because you could breathe down there. And again, yeah, there was no pollen, there was no nothing that attacked my asthma. And so uh it was just a wonderful lifestyle. It really shaped my early years. And uh I remember that there was a policeman on the boardwalk in 9th Street, and he said, I think you're crazy if you don't go into your father's business. And so I I went into a different line. I I was antithetical to well, it was it was I just wanted to avoid anything like that. And so, but I did, and he had a four dealership, and I went there and I took to it like a duck to water because I could do problem solving. And the people just threw on my desk uh whatever was going wrong in the store. And I uh I enjoyed, and I realized now what I was really after the whole time was diagnostics. I I liked solving problems, uh, whether it was puzzles, whether it was playing Scrabble, whether it was playing chess, whether it was writing music, all of those, there was something at the core and the heart of all that, which was solving problems, you know, decoding a situation, which is what also drew me to the Winslow profile, which we offer now today in our Spiritual Strategies Institute, um, because it decodes the human personality in 24 traits, score of one to ten on all of them, and people can get a true, authentic understanding of who they are, their strengths, but also areas where they might be vulnerable and need to grow.

unknown 12:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

So that's fast forwarding, but just but what kept um I kept having a hunger for was I still need to know there's something missing. I still need to know. I feel like there's a there's a truth out there that I haven't connected with. And that's it. It wasn't religious, it wasn't uh deliberate in terms of um uh you know being uh drawn toward uh uh any type particular um house of worship, but I just said there's something out there, and I I think now the Lord was out there saying, Yeah, you keep asking questions. I'm here whenever you're ready. And eventually we connected down the road.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

So, how would you describe your faith at that point as you're going through college, as you're applying to all these medical schools, and did your parents have anything to say about it? Like, did they ever bring up faith at this point in time in your life? Did they leave it alone?

SPEAKER_01 13:45

No, they left it alone. They I think I'd like to say they knew better because my debating skills, my ability to dispute um so-called religious or spiritual arguments, uh most people honestly just didn't have the preparation or the skill to um put up with the questions that I would ask. Because I would ask such intricate, and they would be, I remember people would come up uh on the weekends at uh again going back to Ocean City, and I could see them coming. They were nicely dressed, they had carried their Bibles, and they would come up to the window and do you know the Lord? And and I said, Well, let me ask you this, and I would quote scripture to them, and they were flipping through the pages, flipping through, and they would start mumbling to themselves and walk away. Like, I don't know what this guy's, I don't know how to answer this. So I took uh great pride in disputing uh their thesis about you know who what Jesus was or what the truth was. And I I'm not taking pride in it, but I'm just saying that no people didn't come to me with with uh dis with arguments about how to or or encouragement about how to get deeper into my faith.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Um thinking back from your childhood all the way up till now, it just reminds me of like Jesus not getting lost, but his parents thinking they were lost, and he's up at the temple teaching people. It kind of sounds like that. Like I'm just teaching everybody and I'm just telling people how it is, and nobody's really disputing. They're just all listening and then avoiding, you know, what you have to say at some points because it's like, no, I I know the answers to these things, and I'm gonna dispute you back, you know? That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

One of the things that I was hungry for and found fascinating about the Bible was, and even about questions that I had, was I was able to interrogate this body of work and it held up to scrutiny. It had fancy phrase, it had systemic integrity. No matter where I pushed on, whatever I searched for, uh, it made sense. For instance, uh in the the night before his execution, uh Jesus is able to have a conversation with Philip, and Philip says, just show us your father, and it'll be sufficient for us. And Jesus looked at him and said, Have I been with you so long, Philip, and you still don't know me? When you see me, you see the father. And I remember saying, Hold on, hold on. That that that makes no sense. It's like saying, When you see me, you see Britney.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

And the Lord was patient with me and said, Yeah, but if you did everything that Brittany wanted and nothing that she didn't want, wouldn't it be true that you were you could say, when you see me, you see Britney. Meaning you see her will, you see her decisions, you see her plans, and you're just uh fulfilling that. And I thought, whoa. So these are the kinds of questions I would have. They might seem subtle, they might seem trivial, they were important to me. And so I um I was excited and glad that I could press on any theme, and the Bible stood up to my scrutiny. And so eventually you just have to you just have to say amen. And you say, Okay, I'm done fighting, I'm done debating, uh, I need to yield, as we said the other day, to accede. Remember? Yes, you have to accede to that.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

The new words I learn with you.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

My gosh. And so, and so then what happens, and this is key, Brittany, once you flip the needle from doubt and you capitulate, you give in and you express faith, you can say, Okay, Lord, if you've got something to say to me, I'm all ears. I want to hear it, I want to learn. Now you're opening up the windows of heaven. Because the Bible does say without faith, it is impossible to please God. For he who would come to God must do two things. One, believe that he exists, okay, so I had to put a check mark by that, and believe that he's a rewarder of them who diligently seek him. So he's rewarding. So in in the kingdom of heaven, that's called favor. Now, in a in a uh constitutional republic like we have in America, uh if a president or governor or mayor were to give special favor to one of the citizens, that would that would be corruption. Okay, we put people in jail for that. But in a kingdom, the king owns everything and is able to dispense something we call favor to certain people and not to others. So favor is is given in grace the power to do God's will. And we have to bring faith, which is the currency of heaven. And without faith, it is impossible to please him. If we just had faith of a mustard seed, that is a very small seed. And yet, if we just had faith that small, uh, we could say to a mountain, be thou removed. And so I thought, I this is wonderful. This has a there's a multiplier effect.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Cool thought process there.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, and so eventually I I um connected with a gentleman who was uh we we would take professionally we'd go out and market workshops that were video based back when VHS tapes were the hot thing. We take a world-renowned speaker who now would be on YouTube, let's say, or or TikTok, and they uh we would have them on tape, and then we would provide uh workshops. We were facilitators, and I really enjoyed that. And so I'd left the car dealership and went out to do this, and he invited me, of all things, to a Southern Baptist church, and it was uh I did enjoy the formality and the structure. Uh that meant something to me. I said, okay, this there's something here. But once again, it was um each week they were talking about a crucified Christ. And I thought, okay, got that check mark.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

But now what? Okay, how do what is there for me to do? Where's my purpose? And finally I was introduced to um the concept, the philosophy, or the uh theology of the kingdom of God, and that's just threaded through the Bible, and I began to see there is a strategic plan that's that's in the Bible, and it starts from Genesis to all the way to Revelation. Even in the uh what we call kingdom economics, there's there's an economic system, there's a judicial system in this kingdom, and it's an invisible kingdom, and yet it overlays this the uh the the um social structures and political structures of all the all the countries on earth. It's fascinating, and the Lord wants to bring this in. It brings peace, it it brings unity, uh, it it dispenses with conflict, and my gosh, it just works.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Yeah, hearing your story up to this far, outside looking in, I would think that with such a curious mind, with you having all this knowledge and information, with you going the science route, I would think, oh, lost cause. Like as soon as you get into science, you're going to be all science, and that's it, and there's no way you're coming back and you're lost. But essentially, God used that as a foundation for your life to go learn everything else and then let me. Show you the truth. Let me open your eyes once you think you've got it all together.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

I'll go one step further. Learn all that you've got that you can, and I will, I God, will redeem it. Oh. Okay. What does what does redeem mean? We have you ever gotten a coupon in the mail or in some flyer, and you use it and it says five dollars off if you go to this store and use it for this purpose during this window of time. Well, the Lord is in the redemption business, I believe. And he he says, go ahead, make your mistakes, study what you want, and then bring it to me, and I will redeem it, and you'll get something of value instead of this silly thing that you studied and everything. No, I'm not saying chemistry is silly or anything, but it's it's it's a partial truth. It's truth with a lowercase T. I was looking for truth with a capital T, permanent truth. Okay, and I'll tell you another thing I noticed at being with science, and I I just want to be able to appeal to the engineers, the programmers, uh, the scientists, the mathematicians who are highly analytical and they are skeptical, therefore, about things of faith, rightfully so. I I can understand that. But uh I was, you know, I was one of them, and I I disputed uh heavily. Uh, but the uh the very first verse of Genesis, chapter one, is very different than any other theology. It says, in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And that sounds okay. Let's move on. Let's but let's stop right there. In the beginning. That's a stopwatch. Imagine the first stopwatch, the first moment of history, the first moment of creation. And then created the heaven. That's just that's not heaven where God lives, that's space, the difference between here and there, and the earth. That's not the third planet from the sun, that's matter. So in the beginning, there's time, space, and matter. Well, that's the basis for physics, and the next, you know, let there be light. That was that's the birth of thermodynamics. So there was justification that the Bible might have kind of unscientific terminology to it, but I could appreciate what was hidden behind these words. And I could say, wait a minute, flip the page, tell me more. There's an order, there's a there's a um, I I began to see even the um the again things you study in science class. The earth is tilted 23 and a half degrees on its axis. Okay, that's brilliant, because that's that's what allows the waves and the the wind, which is a source of life, you know, that we we need that across across the earth. I can go into deeper detail, but I won't. But uh that there was justification for um for being able to label this as a created universe, okay. And I would maintain if people would be really honest, they can study all they want, they can go through their math and their science and whatever field of study. Be truthful. Is there not still some hunger in your heart to say, I know there's something else out there, I know there's yet a higher truth that I still haven't discovered? And I would say, come on in to this body of work, because we're searching for the same answers, but I think we might be a step ahead of those people, and we've got something to offer them as they continue their pursuit of this capital T truth. And and that's a that's a market, that's a tribe that I want to reach. I'm hungry for those I'm you know, all people, of course, but those people are kind of dear to my heart because I was one of them. Right and and I and I was searching, but going down again, vain philosophies, uh all branches of science looking for the God of the universe. And nobody had a straight answer for me. Nobody could defend it. Well, even the people of faith, they couldn't defend it, and the people of science hadn't wanted to say nothing about it, and other people just wanted to scorn it or mimic it or mock it, and and it's like, okay, dismiss those people. But the people that are searching, honestly searching for deep truths, uh, I would like them to feel like they're at home here with our Spiritual Strategies Institute.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

It seems to me that out of everything you're saying, the the verse and and biblical kind of context that keeps coming back in my mind is with your curiosity towards everything, it's that God says that He writes His laws on our heart. And with His laws written on our heart, we should naturally have that want, that curiosity to search. And it sounds like you were just searching for those laws, you were searching for the answers.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

That's right. That's well said. And I again, I with my Jewish upbringing, I got the Mosaic law written on my heart.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

But um Jesus, you know, as strong and valuable as that was, it was a stair step to the the new covenant, where Jesus says, you don't need to build a tabernacle, a mobile tabernacle out in the wilderness for 40 years. You don't need to build a temple, Solomon, the most fabulous, use it, multi-trillionaire. And when you add up the value of the resources that his father David assembled in preparation for Solomon to build a temple, it's just outrageous. Uh when you know there's a there's an economic value to the gold and the silver and the bronze and the and the talent of the craftsmen and everything else, it was uh it's astounding. And so when you look at all that, you say that was that was uh that kind of a tabernacle. Then Jesus became the new tabernacle, okay, and then now he's distributed uh his wisdom through the Holy Spirit into his believers. Jesus never wandered more than 100 miles away from his birthplace, birthplace, but now the believers cover the earth and are ho holding and housing the Holy Spirit. It's a it's a once again, a brilliant strategy to redeem the foolishness of the first Adam who got us kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

That's that's a good way to look at it. That's interesting. Okay. So you grew up, go to college, you're trying to figure out what in the world, you are looking through all the other religions and things to see if they back up what they really say, you're finding they don't. Do you ever feel hopeless? Do you ever feel a point where you're like, I'm not gonna figure this out?

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Well, you could say that when the um was it Life or Time magazine, that with that picture of Neil Armstrong taking that picture and of the beautiful appearance of of Earth, I I came to a conclusion. And I'm trying to remember, I was roughly about 17 years old. And uh, and I said, man is fundamentally alone in the universe. I I had I had reached a conclusion. So there's so now out of that is where loneliness comes from, isolation comes from, uh, people just hiding in their cave, and nowadays getting behind their screens and their computers and their and their research and and and I understand that. If you believe that man is fundamentally alone, then you're going to adopt a culture and you're gonna be uh eating you know frozen burritos over the sink at one o'clock in the morning. Uh you're you're gonna do, you know, you're just gonna you're just gonna live an isolated life. And so I was prepared for that. But then um, you know, here's here's something that I didn't mention. I did mention about being in Ocean City, Maryland, uh, each summer. And when I was 19 years old, again, an atheist, I could defend atheism. Okay, this wasn't just agnosticism. Uh, I was a born-again atheist, and I was sitting there um at the end of the day, I loved the uh end of the day, you know, sunset, and it was just uh gorgeous, and all the tourists would leave the beach early to go get their showers and go out to dinner, and I just loved the quiet and the solitude. And so help me, a voice penetrated my ear and my heart, and I I sat up bolt like a bolt of lightning, and I my head twisted around looking for the source of it. It was something carried on the wind. I realized now that it was the Lord speaking to me, and he he just dropped in. He said, You're to name your first son Adam. That's wild. I'm gonna do a new thing through him. That's what we're doing here. We're doing a new thing, and here's it here's something I hadn't thought of. All of that searching for truth is being redeemed in this spiritual strategies institute.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

So there you have it.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Absolutely. I love that. Do you think that was the first time that God spoke to you? Do you already Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

In the in that manner. I mean, we're gonna do a a podcast on ten ways that God speaks uh eventually, but that was one of them. That was a that was an I don't know if I want to say audible voice, but a voice that was in clear English language spoken into my spirit. I didn't even have a spirit. Okay, my spirit was dead on dead on arrival, you know, and yet he I it was just it reminds me of of Saul, eventually, Paul, you know, kicked off his horse. It's like, you know, Saul, why do you persecute me? Right. Who are you? You know, and he said, uh, I am Jesus whom you persecute. You know, it's like it's hard. Don't stop kicking against the goats, meaning stop, stop fighting what's inevitable for your life. Stop fighting it. There's and that's was me. You know, I can identify with this guy, you know, pursuing, he was antagonistic toward the Jewish faith, toward excuse me, toward the um Christians. So, and they and he was persecuting them, he was pursuing. And I I get that. I was pursuing them too. I was antagonistic toward them. I could dispute them. And yet here I was saying, okay, stop. We got plans here, we got stuff we gotta do.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

So I think something that's really important is when that was spoken into your spirit, was was did you have a wife? Was somebody pregnant? Did you like was there any plans to have children?

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Like no. So this was someone He was born 16 years later.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

So that's what I think is so important. That there was no it didn't make sense at the time. And I feel like God tells us things that we're like, what in the world? But at some point, if we will use that knowledge and information, he will redeem just what he says he's going to redeem. He will do what he says he's going to do. Sometimes we don't understand that, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah, one thing I I I think I've come to understand, he's not impressed by our timelines. There are no clocks in heaven.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Uh, there's there's no play, you know, I'm working on two books, there's no book tables in heaven. Okay, because he's got all truth, all knowledge, all wisdom, and we're all gonna be learning from him. I'm eager to sit uh, because if I understand it correctly, there'll be a chance to sit down with Moses and with the Apostle Paul and Elijah and say, yo, talk to me. What's up? You know, let's have lunch.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Well, let me know when you take that chance. I'm gonna be sitting right next to you just listening.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Oh my gosh. Um, you know, again, the hunger for truth. Right. You know, and I'm gonna be with the author. The author of truth. Come on. Okay. So um, you know, well, I have a spiritual father, and he and I said, so I asked him a question one time, uh, and I'm trying to remember how the question went, but he just said, he said, Eric, you're so relentless. You you just keep banging on the doors to the throne room of heaven and saying, Whoa, let me in, I have questions. You know, and I I'm I'm like needing answers, okay, and I'm not going away. You know, and so it's like, okay, open the door, let him in. Let's give him his answer and get him out of here.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Kind of like the lady who was bothering the king and was relentless. And he's like, Okay, what does she want? Let's go ahead and solve this so that I don't have to deal with this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

She's annoying me. Yeah. You know, the king said, and so I have no problem annoying what's going on in the throne room and uh anybody because it's like I have this deep hunger for truth. It's not religion. People say, Well, I'm not religious like you. I said, I I'm not religious at all. Religion is man's attempt to prove himself to God. Faith is is where man yields to to God's superior nature, his his authorship, his his creatorship, his love. The fact that he's um sat what a sacrifice he made to get us connected with him.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Yes. I really like the term relationship instead of religion because I feel like we can understand that a lot better. Because when you have a relationship with someone, whether it's your spouse, significant other friends, you have to put in time and effort for them to know that you care and for them to reciprocate that towards you. And I feel like instead of it being religion and I gotta follow this, I gotta do this, he said not to do that. When you have a relationship with someone, you know those things and you love them so you don't do that. You grow that relationship and you put in the time and effort to learn about them. You ask questions about them. And that's what we do when we're reading the Bible, essentially, is we're learning who he is, we're learning what he likes, and we're learning how to be better for them to have a better relationship. So it's all about relationship, not religion. In my viewpoint, at least. Okay, so you're growing, you're not really living right, but you get struck on the beach saying you're gonna have this child and what to name them, and then 16 years later that happens. But during those 16 years, where do you go from there? Or what is, I guess, what is the point in time where you're like, okay, God, like I I see you, I understand who you are. This is where's that shift at in your life?

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Well, as I mentioned earlier, um, it was professionally when I met a man that we we did these uh video-based workshops. And he he dragged me over to a uh up in Baltimore, Maryland, to a uh Southern Baptist church, and uh, you know, the structure, the rigor, the approach, but then I thought, okay, I'm hearing pretty much the same message every week about it. It was an evangelistic message, valuable for those people who were not in the faith.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

But and this is the thing that really bothers me is that there are some pastors, some churches that are running spiritual playpins, and they just allow people to stay in an immature state. And sometimes some churches are running POW camps. Okay, there've been people people that have been wounded, they've been hurt, legitimately hurt, and I appreciate that. And they need assistance and they need nurturing. But what about the rest of us? I wasn't deeply hurt like that. There were people that are, and I honor that, but let's get some compassionate pastoral types to to deal with them. But then how about the rest of us? You know, those who are hungry and searching for more truth, maturity, and the Bible makes it clear that there are five different levels of maturity, spiritual maturity. And and Jesus said, Be thou therefore perfect, even as I am perfect. Okay, well, wait a minute, you know, greater things than these you'll do in my name. Hold on. How do we do that? How do we accomplish that? Okay, that's that's quite a command. And yet, uh, it's if he said it, I gotta take him on on his word, it's true. So, how do we get to that stage? How do we increase our maturity? And so in this um institute, we're gonna be we're gonna be talking about that and helping people grow or interested.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

Let's take a little sidetrack here because I think this is vital. This is so vital to talk about when you just mentioned churches and how you know baby Christians and how they keep them essentially in that state, nobody's growing or maturing. Um, my example for this is I have seen this locally. There are there are churches all around here. And essentially, when you're going to these churches, you are, yes, you're going through the Bible, but you're hearing one little thing a week about what you should change in your life and go home, have a good day. And you don't do anything else until the next week when you come back and hear one little other thing about, oh, you had a bad attitude. You shouldn't do that. Oh, let me tell you why you shouldn't drink, you shouldn't do that. But nobody is diving in. And until I met you when I was going to church, I was like, okay, I'm doing the right thing. I'm going to church. I'm listening to these messages. This week I fixed, you know, I'm not getting so mad this week, you know, I'm not aggravated so much this week. But I wasn't diving into the Bible and understanding these deep spiritual concepts, just like you said about time and thermodynamics and all these things. I wasn't understanding anything like that because nobody talked about it. And there's been many, many concepts that I've understood through working with you and listening to you that absolutely nobody talks about. There is no discipleship. There is no, okay, you learned how to handle your attitude, you see the fruits of the spirit. What's next? What do you see when you look at these churches or or what should people be looking for when they look for a church?

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Well, I I run the risk of sounding judgmental or critical. And I um, you know, mercy triumphs over judgment. So I don't want to um I want to be real careful about that. But I'll my my Jesus said it, and I I don't I'm not making this up. He said, Go into all the world and make disciples of the nations, you know, teaching them all the stuff I taught you. Say, well, okay, um, so we ought to be accountable for discovering what Jesus taught, what are the principles that he lived by, what are the and again the principle of love, there's other concepts of truth, and one of the things that he was keen on, which I as I continue to study and say, wait a minute, he kept raising the bar from action to motive. He said, You've heard it said by them of old time, thou shalt not kill. But I say to you, whoever is angry with his at his with his brother without a cause is guilty of the same murder. So I'm saying, how could he be guilty? Because he's the motives of his heart. And so he was aiming to transform us beyond behavior to just moat to motive. If you were just talking a little a minute ago about, okay, I didn't do X, Y, Z this last week. That's behavior modification, that's behavior management. That can only go on for so long because that's using an emotional energy supply and a willfulness to to do that. That's only that's the soul. What what Jesus is after is spiritual transformation and not soulish uh behavior management. So so how do we how do we do that? Well, I would say to go back to your question of what kind of house of worship would we be looking for is something like an apostolic sending center where people were being raised up to a greater level of maturity, they were sent out to their schoolroom, to their dentist office, to their um to their bus driving, to their business ownership, to their government office, wherever they are. And and they would uh apply these lessons and be able to come back and be accountable. So when Jesus sent out the disciples two by two and eat and they came back, and they were they were all Excited about this, that, and the other. And he says, Hey, don't be oppressed. Your names are written in the book of heaven, book of life. And so I would I would say, find a place where you're held accountable. Even Paul wrote that to the Corinthians, I believe. He said, I'm coming back to visit you, and I'm going to find out, have you been doing what I taught you the last time?

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

And so just gets Eric's word interpretation. And so uh that's what we ought to be looking for, I believe, is a place. And today it can be virtual. It doesn't have to be uh physical, where it's like down the street and you go there on Sunday morning and then go out for your pancake breakfast. You know, I I it's possible you can do that if you want, but you can also do that virtually, you know, like you and I are speaking, we're hundreds of miles apart right now. So we we have a uh a um strong spiritual bond, speaking of you and you and I and and others who are included in our network, and they're scattered around different cities across the US. Uh and so I I would say don't don't be uh uh don't be looking for just something down the street. If you need to be in in uh close proximity with somebody, that's great. You have a woman's group, and they are they literally come to a physical location. Terrific. Okay, there's there's some people that desire that. I think that's great, but also be willing to to operate uh the way that we are, you know, electronically, you know, technologically.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

So and that's essentially what we're building too. We're building the place of discipleship where people can grow in their faith through these levels, which is our whole heart, right? That's why I thought it was important to mention that, because we have dedicated everything, every talent, everything we're doing to helping people actually follow through with these five steps of discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Um, yes, five, well, five levels of maturity, is that what you're speaking? Yes. Yes, okay, very good. Yes, we certainly are. And again, we're honoring people, whatever level they're at, but we're saying don't stay there.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Okay, because Jesus called us to um to grow, to mature. Imagine if you had a newborn baby, and five years later they're still in the crib whining and and never speaking the king's English and you know, never growing up to eat uh uh more grown-up food. It's like, wait a minute, what's wrong here? You know, but yet we do that spiritually to people. We keep them in a playpen state, and then we we want them to grow. And eventually they need to use a knife and fork and spoon and sit at the table, and you know, and they need to grow up and go to school and have some discipline. So uh that's that's part of the maturity process. So the Bible's clear about that.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

So you're selling all of these tapes, you are getting people involved in this business that you have. Where does Winslow assessment start coming into this?

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Oh, sure. Uh, and this is again, it feeds my hunger for truth. But uh there was a the gentleman who whose workshops we were selling introduced my partner and I to uh William Winslow and said he's starting this company and building uh he's he's got a tremendous uh profile, but now he's wants to distribute it through consultants. And I told him about you guys, and I looked into it, I took the profile, and on the one hand, I was fascinated because I was invalid, this expression we used twice, and it was an offense to me because I'm like, wait a minute, I'm telling the truth here. But no, I wasn't, because there's, for instance, there's a question on there that says uh I finish every project I begin. And I wanted to believe, oh, I'm a man of integrity and I finish, I do, but every that's an adverb. That means a hundred percent. And when I looked at that a third time, I said, you know, I gotta admit, and so I had to be objective and not project into the assessment the behaviors that I wanted to have and the character traits I wanted to have, I had to tell the truth. I had to, I had to admit uh that there was so I I took it a third time and then I became fascinated because a lot of the traits were complementary, but there were a couple that just told the truth. You know, one of them was nurturance. And as I read these the paragraphs on this, I I said to myself, here are some organizational psychologists who've never met me, never laid eyes on me, and they have written paragraphs that mimic what others have said about me who know me. And I said, there's something here, there's an alignment between this analysis and the feedback that I'm getting, subjective feedback. And I said I gotta know more.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Just to make it clear for everyone, you say profile a lot, but I feel like a lot of people are like, what is a profile? What are we talking about? A profile is this is essentially a personality assessment that was um kind of drawn out of 20 years of research and things like that. And William Winslow is my grandfather, which is how we got connected, which is a cool story. We'll go into at some point. But um, you were essentially taking a personality assessment and you're figuring out who you were. And these the first two times that you took it, it came back as hey, you might not be um showing exactly who you are. So you might going to have to retake this. And then the third time when you saw the assessment, you were like, okay, you're actually telling me who I am. And so your search for truth was like met with a big check mark right there of like, okay, yeah, you see me for who I am.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yes, that's that's that was the big thing that this is a they kept Winslow research kept its integrity by saying, we can't print a result, a report for you until you're objective. And so Winslow was kind enough to take some time to explain to me what I just shared with you about this, these adverbs that were in there, always, never, every. And so I said, you know what? I gotta be, I gotta really bring objectivity to the way that I answer these questions. And so I like that because it was encouraging to me that says, we're just not gonna print a work of fiction. And so that that intrigued me. It was it was in place for about 20 years at the time, and now it's been in place for about 50 years. And so um, so anyway, that's that's how things started. That's what drew my interest, and but it matched, once again, this hunger for truth. And so I said, this is a way to uh in pretty minute detail give people a report on their strengths and validate that, but also to tell them the truth about their vulnerabilities, and therefore to give them a chance to make improvements, should they want to. And so that's been that drew me, and I uh I took it and never never looked back. And so now, because of his passing, uh, I've had the pleasure of owning this operation.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Right. So through all those years, you decided you went into the business, you were selling assessments, you became the top salesman for all of these assessments. So if you do anything, you do it to the fullest extent, of course. And as you're going through all these assessments, did a spiritual side ever like prick your heart of like, hey, you could use this spiritually, or were you just living life, making money, doing the things you need to do? Like, how was your spiritual life during this time?

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Yeah, well, well, I you're my spiritual life was one thing, but you just asked, was there a connection? And so that um Winslow himself decided to create this so-called Bible-based report. And that was uh, I had a couple of my compatriots who became advisors to the creation of this report. And it wasn't really marketed heavily, so it was didn't really see um much uh much market potential. Uh there wasn't results, but the people that did use it were fascinated. But what I began to see was the Winslow profile measures the components of the human soul, and so we have a spirit which is rejuvenated, redeemed, renewed at the point of salvation, but then we also have this thing called a human soul. Um Hebrews 4.12 says that the soul and spirit, in so many words, are so intertwined that they it's only the word of God that can operate like a scalpel to separate our soul from our spirit, because we believe if I feel something deeply, it must be true, or if I think something deeply, because I've analyzed it, it must be true, or if I believe something deeply, the will, uh, it must be true. So we impose our mind, our will, and our emotions onto truth, and we twist it until we make we make it so. And again, this is the risk of a purely scientific approach. So I I love once again the integrity of biblical truth because it says, no, you have a soul, and this profile is going to help you identify the components of it, and you can work with a coach, or you can do it yourself, or you can just work with a pastor, or you can just work with the Holy Spirit. But whatever you do, admit that there are strengths, but there are immature areas. That's just telling the truth. Uh once again, here's that word, truth. And then here's the spirit over here where we're walking through and helping people grow through five levels of maturity. So there's a there's a there's a I hate to use this because somebody will criticize it. There's a system, uh, there's a methodology, there's an approach. Start by identifying where you are, and then to the extent that you want to grow, you can kind of move up in a direction of of personality transformation and uh maturity uh in the uh in the spiritual side. So there's just room to grow. And uh this is just so encouraging to me, and we I want to be a part of that. I want to create tools and systems and and conversations like this that allow people to investigate and say, I I want to do that, I want to grow like that, and that they're hungry and that we can be of service to them. So hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

So when did it shift from, okay, yeah, he's got this Bible profile, it's not really going anywhere, but now we are creating this entire institute based on it. Where was that shift at?

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Probably when he passed away and his widow came to me and offered me the intellectual property of the company, and I realized what I had my hand on. In fact, a month after I bought it, I felt deep weight uh of responsibility. I mean, honestly, I I've got a pretty stable emotional makeup, but I remember in July of 2020, uh hard to admit, but I I just it was a borderline depression. It was just a weight of responsibility of dozens and dozens of consultants and thousands of of their of my clients and their clients, and it's like I am talk about being fundamentally alone in the world. Here's where here's where I felt, okay, I'm there's nobody around. Look to your left, look to your right, there's no team. You know, I had one brilliant technician uh to handle things, but um in terms of marketing and so forth, there was no and so it's like where do I go from here? Right and I think the Lord just was allowing me to kind of get on my knees and say, you know, what's next? How do I what do I do with this? And so step by step a um uh a team was drawn together, and it's you know, the the uh cross-fertilization of ideas. And I'm a great believer in liberty, so people have the right to ask questions and recommend things and be creative and we deliberate, discuss, and then come up with conclusions and deploy. So uh I like the culture. I think it's a wonderful culture, and again, it it allows us to search for truth, but when was your question? And I think that was a crossing over point um when I you know purchased the property rights of this, and then and then step by step it got it got underway. So um, and then also the Lord's tested me along the way uh to be you know and and given me I I had to be prepared. It's like I remember one time getting into a discussion with somebody, we had some fellowship, shall we say, some intense fellowship, and uh the Lord uh I was like disputing with the Lord about you know why he allowed that to happen. You know how people ask these questions, right? And he he just clearly said to me, You came up out of the grave. He said, Where I'm taking you, death is the standard. Well, come on, man. Death to self is the standard. You're either gonna allow me, the Lord is saying, to lead, or I'll say goodbye. You just because you're so brilliant, Eric, you just run it. And that'll shut your mouth real fast.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

The negative side to being so smart.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Yeah, it's like you're so smart, go ahead, you run it. So just you know, and then there was a time I call it the oxygen covenant. I'm just sitting in my conference room, just doing my business. I no prayer, no nothing. And the Lord just invades, just comes right in. He says, I want you to, from now on, I want you to think of resources the way you think about oxygen. I said, What? He repeats that. I want you to think about resources the way you think about oxygen. I said, I don't understand. It's just, you see, the conversational nature. And this is when I just want a liberty. I don't need to go to a church to have this happen. It was happening in the middle of a work day.

unknown 59:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

And I said, I don't understand. He said, How badly do you need oxygen? I said, desperately. How often do you think about it? I said, Never. He said, and he repeated the third time, from now on, I want you to think about resources the way you think about oxygen, and disappeared. He's gone. And I'm sitting here, and this is four four years later, so I'm still talking about it. And it's like, so he will instantaneously supply the resources that we need if we'll take it by faith and operate that way. And if I, you know, if I were to come over to your house, I'm not gonna bring an oxygen tank. I'm not gonna ask you in advance, oh, by the way, do you have enough oxygen for me to breathe? You're gonna look at me like I'm weird. Okay. But we assume that a desperately needed resource is in abundance supply wherever we go.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

We don't carry around oxygen tanks for ourselves and our kids. So, I mean, I it might sound silly, but this is the Lord speaking to me. I didn't make this up. And so I'm I'm like, okay, this is what we call Brittany, this is what we call kingdom economics.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

This is a different way of operating. You know, this is when Peter, he was a hot-headed guy, he comes in after being accosted by the the dudes who ran you know involved in collecting the temple tax. And when he came in the house where Jesus was, Jesus knew what he was going to say. And he just says, Peter, Peter, of whom do the kings and governors collect taxes? Is it of their sons or of strangers? And he said, Strangers. He said, Then the sons are free. I mean, we're we're liberty. Nevertheless, I love that word. Uh to avoid causing any offense, go down to the to the lake and pick up the first fish, first fish. I love the faith.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

First fish, and pull the coin out of his mouth and pay these guys. And that that coin was a tetradrachma. When you go look at it, the coin was a of four drachmas, which was exactly the tax for two guys, it was two drachmas per year. And so tetradrachma was the exact tax. Jesus had faith. He didn't carry the coin in his pocket.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:46

He said there's instantaneous supply right at the moment of need. That's like the oxygen covenant. So I want to live like that. I want to live like that, where I can lean into the Lord and saying, I know you'll supply all my needs according to your riches in Christ. And so I want to get to that level of faith. And that's what Jesus is calling us to. I'm calling you to that. So it's not for everybody, but I'm like, I'm hungry. I want to go there.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:18

Right. So everything that has happened in your life, all your searching, all of your want for knowledge and understanding, you found through the word. And now through the word, we are creating this institute to help people follow through on exactly what Jesus tells you to go out and be disciples, to learn, to grow through this spiritual process, I guess we could say, to mature.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Yes. Yes, yes. I just anybody who's hungry for truth, anybody who's feeling I'm out of answers. Again, capitulation, tough word, but it's like I'm out of answers. I imagine some of the ladies who come to your um study group, they are they're out of answers. And they're just they're ready. And you know, you bring them hope. You call yourself a hope dealer. So um we bring hope. And what what faith does is it brings hope into the present tense. So hope is a future thing. We can pull, reach out, pull hope into the present, and capitalize on it and put it put it to use. And so you, and that's the promises that you make for people. Hey, we'll help you, we'll go help go grocery shopping, we'll come clean your house, we'll do this, we'll do that, the various things that lift burdens for people and make them feel, hey, I am not alone.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

Um, so again, I man is fundamentally alone in the universe. There are people who believe that, and it causes them to be uh afraid or of uh alone, lonely. And so, whatever state people are in, in the case, my case, it wasn't a loneliness, but it was a sense of no, there's nothing else out there. And the Lord is like, no, I'm still here. And you say, Well, wasn't he mad at you? No, he's like, I I'm not I'm not moved by Eric's uh arrogant intellectual arrogance that he thinks he's got it all together, and no, he hasn't found me yet. And when he does, we're gonna have some fellowship.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

We're gonna do business together.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:28

So, quickly near close here. You've mentioned that a couple times as the man on the moon as being alone. How is your view of that now?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

Oh, just the opposite. So um the the Lord's intention is that we live in unity, uh, and that all of the uh issues that separate and divide us today, it's just a bunch of foolishness, the political issues and social and civic. It's like, and there are people who are paid just as to to stir up problems and provide clickbait. Um I'm not moved by that. And one thing we often do when Brittany, I'd like to say this, is we've got to guard our heart. We have to guard our heart. I just don't allow myself to study and watch every news clip uh that's that's coming at me through these various feeds. I just have to guard my heart. I need to have the discipline to say no. And why is that? Because God is not giving me the grace to deal with it. The grace is important because grace is a supernatural fuel supply, it allows me to deal with things. And he's saying, I didn't ask you to deal with that problem. Oh, you want to go deal with it? You go ahead and see how much emotional energy and intellectual prowess you have. And let's, when you're exhausted, Eric, come back to me. Okay, but I need you to then admit you had no business diving in or messing with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

Okay, yeah, out of the abundance of the heart. The mouse speaks. So when you're filling your heart and your mind with everything that's out there, you're not going to be speaking the way that you should be. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So you had a dramatic shift, we could say.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

Um yes, yes. So it was it was dramatic. Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:23

Well, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your life and how you got to this point. I know a lot of people are definitely interested in where the backbone of this podcast comes from and why we wanted to do this. So I think this will help a lot of people understand and see, especially if you have a science-based background of you know how God can shift and how there's never you're never too late, you're never too lost, there's always a redeeming thread. If he's if you're in the middle of something, it's not over until he's redeemed the situation.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

That's it. Well said. Yes. That's it. He hits the last word.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Yes. Well, thank you all so much for joining us today, and we look forward to sharing much more information on this podcast to come.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

Amen. Thank you. Okay. Bye-bye.